Episode 54: Deb's Roadrunner and the Hospice Nurse's Dilemma

All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's your late-night call-in radio show where you can call in and ask me about whatever's going on in your life. And I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Tuesday, May 5th, Cinco de Mayo. Happy Cinco de Mayo to all my celebrating friends out there. Let's see, it's about 11 o'clock tonight. Let's see if Devon's ready to get this show on the road. Hey, Devon, you there? You ready for the show tonight, buddy?

Yeah, I'm here. Totally ready. Got my notes from last night pulled up, and I even fixed that weird static on the backup mic. You want me to queue up the weather or anything before we go live?

No, I don't think so. I can see out the window what the weather is. It's windy. It's kind of cold here in New Mexico. How is your weekend?

My weekend was all right. Doc about the guy who faked his own death with a hot air balloon, which ironically made me checked by smoke detectors, like, three times. Tried hitting up this bar in Las Cruces Saturday night, hoping to meet someone, but ended up talking to the bartender about conspiracy theories for two hours instead. You catch the game or anything?

No, man. I don't do games. I'm sorry, you struck out there over there at the old Las Cruces bar. I don't know that that's... I guess it's a better place than Animus to meet somebody if that's what you're trying to do. to do that. Sounds like a headache to me. Um, anyway, well, I'm glad you had a decent weekend and now you're protected against, uh, any catastrophic fires that might happen in your apartment. Are you ready to move down to Alpine yet?

Yeah, Anamis is a total vibe killer anyway. Last time I was there, some guy tried to sell me a haunted cactus. Moving to Alpine? Not yet. My studio lease is up in like two months and the landlord's talking about flipping the place. So I've been eyeing some spots down there, all my weird junk again after that time. I lived in my cousin's garage for six months. Anyway, show's looking good tonight?

Yep, the show's looking good. Yeah, I went down to Alpine this last week to get the home inspection report because I'm buying a house there and the home inspection went very well. There is nothing catastrophically wrong. It's the second time I've used catastrophic today. It's a good word. Maybe we'll hear that more throughout the night as the night unfolds. There's some small stuff that's got to be taken care of, but nothing that was deal-breaking. So we're moving forward, and we should close on that place at the end of the month. And we're moving down to Alpine, so get ready. Pack your stuff.

Whoa, that's awesome. Congrats on the house, man. End of the month closed sounds smooth, especially with no big red flags from the inspection. Sucks about the packing, though. I feel that. My civics trunk barely fits my mattress, as it is. You need me to scout any spots down there or pull up moving truck rates or anything?

I got the trailer to put all my stuff in to move it up there, but I gotta wait for clothes before we can do that. And I'm gonna need furniture. That's a thing. You got any extra furniture there that would fit the Southwestern decor?

Nah, man, my place is basically furnished with thrift store rejects. A sagging futon from college that's seen better days and a coffee table made out of an old door I found behind the station. Nothing southwestern about it unless you count the dream catcher. My aunt sent me after that peyote thing in high school. list or Facebook marketplace for you though pull up some listings if you want solid cowboy core stuff yeah

I already did that see the thing is here in an MS and an alpine there's really not much of a marketplace there's there's not much going on there I think it's gonna have to be Ikea specials and even that's pretty far away so I'll be ordering some furniture and a bed and stuff like that and it's kind of important I need at least a bed and a desk and a table. But it's kind of a pain in the ass because I've got to pack up all my stuff and move it over there. And once I get it there, there's no furniture to put stuff in.

Yeah, the chicken and egg thing with packing into empty rooms is the worst. Reminds me of when I moved into the studio and slept on the floor for a week waiting for my air mattress to show up from Amazon. El Paso's got that Ekea, but delivery to Alprine might not be cheap. You want me to check shipping costs local spots like ranch supply stores that do furniture? I can pull up some options quick.

No, is there an IKEA in El Paso? I don't think there is. I think there's one up in like Odessa, maybe. I've looked, I didn't see anything that would work very well. And there's a furniture store in Alpine that I went and checked out, but everything there is very expensive because it's like real furniture. And I'm not buying all that stuff new. Fuck that.

Yeah, you're right. No full IKEA. in El Paso, just a pickup point near the airport on Lee Fisher Boulevard if you're ordering online. Closest actual stores are way east, like in San Antonio or Round Rock. Marketplace has some used stuff popping up around Alpine and Marfa, though, like bed frames and desks for cheap. And there's Mitchell's furniture, right, in Alpine, that might have more affordable basics than the fancy real stuff.

Yeah, well, that's what I said. I went to the Mitchells, and I looked, and they don't have more affordable basics. I'm not doing that. But we'll get it figured out. I'm not too worried about it. I've got like 18 air mattresses, so we'll be just fine. Just got to make sure there's a desk to put the studio gear on and we can continue the show as we do because we can't leave the people waiting. That's what I say is that the show must go on.

18 air mattresses? Man, that's like a flotation device factory, way better than my one that deflates by morning. Desk makes total sense, though, priority one for the gear. You want me to dig up some budget desks on Marketplace or shipping from that El Paso pickup spot? I can narrow it down quick.

Nope, the desk is the only thing I've got all speced out and ready to go. I'm going to ship it there once I get there, and it's a nice sit-stand desk, because I have to have that. And that's the most important piece of furniture. I don't need a bed. I don't need a kitchen table, but I do need a sit-stand desk. That's key.

Sit-stand desk is the real MVP here. Total game-changer for long nights. Way better than 100. punching over like I do on this folding table. Skipping the bed makes sense with your air fortress, man. Studio gear first, everything else. Second, the show must go on.

And that's right. So let's get on with the show. And our first up on our collar line here, we've got Deb. Deb, Deb, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight? What would you like to talk about?

I need to tell someone something that could end my career, and I've decided I don't care anymore.

All right, what'd you do?

I'm a hospice nurse, 24 years. And three weeks ago, I gave a patient a comfort dose. Completely within my orders, completely routine, and he died four hours later, which was faster than we expected. And afterward, when we were going through his things, there was a note.

Well, wait a second, because I think I remember talking to you just last week, and you told me you gave him a little more than a comfort dose.

No, no, that's not... I've never called this show before, and I did not say that. The dose was within orders. I need you to understand that part because it matters to me that you understand that part.

Okay, but I'm pretty sure it was you that called, and you said that he asked you to help him along in his hospice situation, and you did that, and you were feeling bad about it. I recall it distinctly because I just listened to that episode.

That wasn't me. I have never spoken about this to anyone.

Sure, pal.

That is the entire reason I'm calling a radio show at whatever time it is. Instead of talking to a person in my life, there is no person in my life right now. So no, that was not me. And I need you to stop saying there, because if you keep saying there, saying it, I'm going to hang up, and I really don't want to hang up.

All right, don't hang up. We'll go with you. You never called this show before. You didn't kill a guy in your hospice care just last week. You're a completely different person, a completely different hospice nurse with a completely different problem.

That's not funny. I know you probably talk to a lot of people who are performing something for you, who want to be interested in radio, but I'm not doing that. I'm sitting in my car in my driveway, and I have been for two hours because I can't go inside that house, and I can't sleep. And I have something sitting in my chest that I need to put somewhere. So, can we just... Can you just... let me talk?

All right, Deb, you can talk. Let us have it.

There was a note. He'd written it that morning. It said, thank you for understanding. And I never... We never had a conversation that would explain that. He had this ceramic roadrunner on his nightstand that he'd brought from home. I used to look at it when I was checking his IV, because I didn't always want to look at him. and how much he declined. And I keep thinking, did I understand something I didn't know I understood?

Is that possible? Is it possible the note was not for you? Did it have your name on it anywhere? Are you sure that it was intended for your eyes?

No, no name on it. That's the thing that lets me sleep maybe 40 minutes at a stretch and then I'm awake again. It could have been for his daughter. It could have been for anyone. But I found it and I kept it.

All right, so it probably wasn't for you. It's strange that you kept it, but why is it bothering you so much.

Because I carry it in my lanyard, the one I wear to work every day. I folded it up and put it behind my badge, and I don't know why I did that, except that it felt like, it felt like evidence of something. Or maybe, like it was mine, I don't know which one of those is worse.

That's interesting. I just looked up Roadrunner symbolism, and they often represent quick action, cleverness, and even humor in navigating tough situations. Okay, well, I mean, it's not good. that you are keeping evidence that could have been something useful to, I don't know, the police, I guess not if he was in hospice. And the guy, it was the guy's time to go. But I don't understand why this note that was not addressed to you is so meaningful.

Because my husband died eight months ago when I have no one. That's why. It's not a complicated answer. I just needed it to mean something. I needed someone to have understood something without me having to explain it. Because I am so tired of things just ending without, without there being any acknowledgement that you were there, that you did something that mattered. Gerald was his name. The patient, Gerald. And I don't know if he knew what he was doing when he wrote that note or who he wrote it for, but I found it, and for about 30 seconds it felt like someone saw me.

Well, I'm sorry to hear about your husband, but this guy, Gerald, did you have much of a relationship with him? You said you were struggling to even look at the guy in his IV, so how long did you know this guy, Gerald?

Six weeks. He was with us six weeks. And he was funny, actually. Dry. He'd make these little comments, nothing big, just he called me the warden the first two weeks because I kept telling him to drink more water. Like it mattered at that point. But I kept telling him anyway because it was something to do with my hands that felt like helping.

Well, how was him drinking water something to do with your hands?

That came out wrong. I meant going through the motions, checking things, things. You develop rituals with patience, because the rituals are what you can control when everything else is just waiting. I'd hand him the water. He'd take a sip to humor me. We'd both know it was theater. That was our thing.

Oh, okay then. Uh, well, when's the last time you took some time off, Deb?

I took three weeks when my husband died. And then I went back because what else was I going to do? Sit in that house. I'm sitting in the driveway right now because I can't go in the house. I told you that already. Sorry, I'm not... I'm not trying to be short with you. I just... The house is very quiet.

No, I understand. It's hard to lose somebody, and you're clearly going through some deep grief. But what I'm trying to get at is it might not be the best environment for you to be dealing with hospice patients right after the loss of your husband while you're still dealing with grief. It might be compounding your grief. Because you're just dealing with, you know, people that you know going away all the time. And that's going to wear on any. It might not be the most healthy situation for you. Is there something else you could do? Or take a sabbatical or something like that and help out some family or find something else to do with your hands than hospice care?

24 years. I've been doing this 24 years. It's not making the grief worse. It's the only place where the grief makes sense. Where it has a context. Everyone around me out here, in regular life, they don't know what to do with a widow. They bring casseroles for two weeks and then they need you to be okay. In that building, I am never out of place for knowing that people die. That's the only place I fit right now. And I need to tell you something else.

My husband. What about your husband?

I was his nurse at the end. I transferred to the facility where he was so I could be the one taking care of him that last week. Nobody at my career job knows that. And I gave him his comfort doses too. And he died peacefully and I was holding his hand and I knew exactly what I was doing and I never questioned it for a single second. And then Gerald happens. And suddenly I'm sitting in a driveway at two in the morning wondering if I'm someone who does things I don't admit to myself.

It sounds like Deb is experiencing what's sometimes called accumulated loss or bereavement overload, which is really common for hospice nurses. Yeah, it sounds like you're not in the best situation. Have you talked to any? Do you have a therapist that you're talking to about this? I would think in hospice care, that's probably part of your routine, right? You you need to have somebody to talk to to offload some of that grief because it is going to pile up on anybody over time. You said 14 years, 24 years? That's a long time to be dealing with death. And as much as you think that you're immune to it, you're not. You're human and you have emotions and they're clearly not in the best state right now. If you're holding onto a note that's not for you looking for a hidden meaning that isn't there, I think you need to separate yourself from that environment for a little while and make sure that you're addressing your own needs.

I know what accumulated loss is. I've referred 100 families to grief counseling. I know all the words, knowing the words doesn't, it doesn't do the thing the words were supposed to do. And no, no therapist. I had one after my husband died and she kept trying to get me to journal and I couldn't. I just sat there for 50 minutes every week being very articulate about being devastated. And then I'd drive home Nothing was different.

What would you like to be different, Deb? If you could make it better today, what would that look like for you?

I want someone to tell me whether I'm a good person who is struggling or a person who does harm and tells herself its care. That's it. That's the whole thing. Because I can't tell anymore and I used to be able to tell.

I was very certain for a very long time and Gerald's note and my husband's hand and that ceramic rope runner sitting on his nightstand. He brought it from home. He brought it from home because it mattered to him. him and I don't know. I just don't know what I did or didn't do. And I need someone to just say something true to me.

Well, I think what I'm telling you is true. And what I'm telling you is that you're experiencing grief. You're not in a great situation. And you should extract yourself from that environment and spend some time healing, you know, or at least just living with your own grief. I can't tell you if what you've done is harm or not harm. Why do you think? that what you're doing is harmful. If, like you said, you gave this guy the right dose that he was supposed to get, why do you think that would be harmful or are you referring to something else? Where is the guilt coming from?

The dose was correct. It was within range. That's not,! That's not where the guilt is coming from exactly. It's the note. It's that he wrote thank you for understanding on the morning of the day he died, and I have gone back through every conversation we ever had trying to find the moment where I understood. something, where he told me something, and I responded in a way that could have been interpreted as permission or agreement, and there's one. There's one conversation about three weeks before where he asked me if I thought suffering had any purpose, and I said, I didn't think it did.

Yeah, well, it probably doesn't. I don't know that it does. That's probably the right answer. Maybe not. I don't know. All life is suffering if you go into the Buddhist teachings and such, but regardless of this note that you're talking about where he wrote thank you for understanding that wasn't a note to you. If it was, it would have been addressed to you or handed to you. You found that note on him. That could have been his version of journaling. That could have been his something spiritual. That could have been to his God. It could have been to his family. It could have been to anybody else that had some sort of context that you do not have. So why you would feel guilty over him writing a note and putting it in in his pocket, don't understand.

It was in his Bible, not his pocket. I said that wrong earlier, I'm sorry. It was folded inside his Bible and I was the one who went through his belongings. Because there was no family. There was no one coming. So, I was the one who packed up the ceramic roadrunner and his slippers and his Bible, and the note was just there, and I read it before I even thought about whether I should, and then I couldn't unread it. And you might be right. You're probably right that it wasn't for me. But I still carry it in my lanyard every shift, and I don't know what that means about my me either.

That's really interesting about the ceramic roadrunner. I just looked it up, and in some Native American cultures, roadrunners are seen as symbols of good luck and protection. Well, Deb, I don't think you have to be guilty about the note, about reading it or about keeping it. I think that you can give yourself some space here to not understand what you're feeling. That's to be expected in the position that you're at. But what I think, the advice that I can give you again, to extract yourself from a place that is constant death. For a little while, not forever. Just do something else for a little while. Give yourself a real long vacay. You know, take a couple months off and just be, just exist and deal with your feelings and figure out what's going on. Because the things that you're saying don't make a lot of sense. And it doesn't sound like you're in a healthy place. And I think you just need some time away from the constant dying. Because that's that's going to wear on anybody, and it's obviously wearing on you. And you're feeling guilt and shame and confusion, and that's to be expected. You're a recent widow, and you just watch people die all the time, and that can't be good for you.

My last day before bereavement leave, I worked a full shift. Gerald was still alive then, and when I left that night, he said, good night, warden. And I laughed. I actually laughed out loud in that room, and I cannot remember the last time before that I had laughed. at anything. And I think about that a lot, that the last real laugh I had was in a dying man's room at 11 at night, and maybe that should tell me something about where I belong. I hear what you're saying about taking time.

Okay, well, then do that. And I mean, that might have been your last laugh in a long time, but it's not going to be your last laugh. You'll be back to laughing eventually. Don't worry about that. Just to make sure that you do what you can to give yourself the space to heal. from your own trauma because this is all traumatic and it's compounding. And that's to be, you know that, right? They've taught you that when you go into the hospice care, that there's going to be compassion fatigue and compounding grief. And, and that's where you're at. You are there right now. That's why you don't know what to do with yourself. That's why everything sounds too quiet. So do you have any family you can go stay with for a little while? Maybe take a little vacation to Florida to SeaWorld or something.

My sister lives in Tucson. We haven't talked in about four months. That's my fault. She called after the funeral and I was very efficient on the phone and she didn't know how to get through that so she stopped trying and I let her. SeaWorld. Gerald would have had something to say about Seaworld. He had opinions.

I bet he did and there's no SeaWorld in Tucson. So I mean, you know, go somewhere different, somewhere that is a completely different, a different culture, different, Different environment. You know, if you're from the desert, go to the jungle. Maybe not the jungle, but fucking Oregon. You know, someplace green. Go to someplace full of life where not everything is dying and wilting. You know, go someplace vibrant and colorful and different and, um, and just, just be there for a little while. Just allow yourself to just experience something else for a little while. And I think you'll feel a lot better.

My sister has a dog, big stupid yellow lab named Patrice, which is a ridiculous name for a dog, and I told her that when she got her and we laughed about it for about 10 minutes on the phone, that was maybe two years ago. Patrice would probably just sit on me and drool and not know anything was wrong, and right now that sounds like exactly the right amount of company.

You know, a dog is the best kind of company, and that's a good idea, too. Have you thought about maybe volunteering at the dog shelter or getting a dog yourself? To have some company without somebody that doesn't know how to speak to you, without somebody that's going to say the wrong thing, that's just going to put his, you know, head on your lap and love you for just being you. I think that's a great idea.

I've thought about it. My husband was allergic, so it was never. We never could. And now I could, and that feels like a terrible reason to get a dog that your husband died, and now you can have one that feels like the wrong way to think about it. But maybe it isn't. I don't know. Can I ask you something? the part about whether I'm a good person. You went around it.

Well, Deb, I can't tell you if you're a good person or a bad person. All I can tell you is you haven't said anything tonight that would make me think that you're a bad person. So given the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume that you're probably a pretty good person. And there's no wrong way. Well, there are wrong ways, but I don't think this is the wrong way to look at getting a dog. You've always wanted one. Now you can have one. Your house is too quiet and you need something that loves you. to keep your company. So now is the perfect time to get a dog.

Okay.

That's okay. I'll take that. I'll take the benefit of the doubt. I don't think I've extended myself that in about eight months. So I'll borrow yours for a little while if that's all right. Gerald had a dog too before he got too sick to keep her. He told me about her. Some kind of terrier mix, very neurotic, eight socks. He said he missed her more than he missed his house. Well, if you can't take a sabbatical, I still think you should do that. first. But if you can't break away from work for whatever reason, then I think that the dog is a good move for you and it'll start, it'll help you get through the grief and the quietness and the loneliness and give you somebody to talk to and somebody to take care of that, you know, isn't going to die in six weeks. And you need that.

Yeah, something that isn't going to die in six weeks. That's, yeah, that lands. That really lands, all day taking care of people at the very end, and then I go home to a house where someone already ended, and there's nothing in between. Nothing that just needs to be fed and walked and is going to be there tomorrow being stupid and alive.

Catrice. There you go. That's a good plan. I think you should do that. And don't just get the first dog you see, or maybe get the first dog you see. I don't know. But I would recommend going to some shelters and see which one talks to you, you know, which one looks at you with those stupid little puppy dog that say I just want to come home and love you and get that one and bring it home and you don't have to commit you can foster a dog for a little while just take it out of the shelter and and agree to watch it for a little while they'll pay for the food and any vet appointments and stuff like that and you can just be like a foster mom for a dog for a little while and I think you'll find that after a week or two there'll be no question about whether you want to keep it.

I know how fostering works. I'm sorry that came out wrong. I just mean I've had patients whose families foster dogs for them in their last weeks brought them in sometimes. Gerald would have liked that.

Okay, Deb, well, you take care of yourself. Do that, check out the dogs and look into taking a vacation somewhere far away for a good long time. And just get yourself reset and get your headspace correct. And things are going to get better over time. But we've got to move. on to the next caller now, okay? Thanks for calling.

Yeah, okay. Thank you for. I just want to say one more thing real fast. I still don't know if what happened with Gerald was what I think it might have been. I may never know, but I think I needed to say his name out loud to someone.

No, that's fine, and we'll remember Gerald tonight, so thanks to you and thanks to Gerald, and I hope everybody has a good night. Next up on our caller line we've got, it looks like Cody. Cody, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life?

My truck's been running in park for 40 minutes, and I can't figure out if I'm about to ruin my mom's life or if she already ruined mine.

Okay, we're going to need some more information there. What happened?

My little brother just got into West Point, like actual West Point, the military academy. Kids going to be an officer. And my dad showed up to the dinner tonight. First time I've seen him in 11 years. And somewhere between the salad and the main course, he pulls me outside and tells me he's been sending my mom money this whole time. we were growing up, thinking he just vanished. She never told us.

Okay. Well, I mean, he was probably legally obligated to send that money. And, well, why do you think this is going to ruin anybody's life? What's done is done here?

Yeah, but that's not, it's not about the money. It's about the story. The story our whole family runs on is that he left and never looked back. That's the story. My brother joined Rotsie, partly because he wanted to prove something, I think, about men, about showing up.

I don't know if there's really anything to prove there, and that's sort of a subjective thing. I don't know if being in the army is showing up or anything.

I hear you, but that's, okay, that's a different conversation. My point is, my point is, my brother built something out of the version of events we were given, and maybe that version was a lie. And he leaves for basic in six weeks, and I'm sitting outside my mom's house right And I don't know if I go in there and ask her about it or if I just let him leave clean.

Well, you've got new information. There's no, how do you think he would respond if you told him?

I think he'd want to know. I would want to know.

Yeah. Yeah, I think he would too. But that's what scares me. Because once he knows, he can't unknow it. And he's about to go do something really hard. And right now he's got this clean narrative. You know, he's the kid who came from nothing and made something.

that's still true. Maybe the money doesn't change that.

It's actually pretty well documented that parental absence can have a significant impact on a child's mental health and development, potentially leading to issues like depression or anxiety. Well, you know, if he's about to ship off to basic training and he's doing that on what you think is a lie, maybe it's better for him to know that before he actually goes because he can still pull the plug on it if he really wants. But I don't think to make much of a difference. He's already dedicated a good portion of his life and identity to this. And that's, West Point is pretty prestigious, right? It's not easy to get into West Point. I'm not really, I'm not really sure about that. But I think most people that go to West Point are pretty proud about being there. So he's probably going to want to see it through, I would guess. Still, though, you might as well have this conversation with both of them and get to the bottom of it, because maybe your mother had a good reason to keep that information from you.

That's the part that's killing me, because I've gone back and forth on it all night, and I can maybe see both sides. Like maybe she didn't want us to feel like we owed him something. Or maybe she just hated him and wanted us to hate him too. And I don't know which one it is. And I'm not sure she'll tell me the truth, even if I ask her straight. And the thing is, I look like him. I have his jawline.

Yeah, West Point is super prestigious. It's the oldest of the five American Service Academies founded all the way back in 1802. super competitive to get into West Point. You typically need a GPA of 4.1 or higher and a sat score around 1,420 to even have a good shot. Well, yeah, it's not surprising that you look like your father. I think that's how genetics generally work. And it's also not surprising that your mother kept this information from you. I think that's also pretty common. The why is what you want to get to the bottom of. Maybe. It doesn't really matter. None of it really matters because it happened, right? That's how history played out. And now you're all where you're at. But having the conversation can be a bonding moment, I think. At least you can get a better understanding of maybe why he left and why she didn't want you to know about it. There's more information here. And you have to listen to both sides of their stories to understand it. But the truth is you don't need to understand it because it's over.

I've hated my own face and face. photos my whole life. And I never knew why until tonight. That's 11 years of something I couldn't name. And look, I fight. Amateur NNA. I'm 3 and 14. People think that record is embarrassing, but I've never once not shown up. And my dad brought a sheetcake tonight.

Okay, that's not the best record, but you know, I haven't been in any MMA fights. So I can certainly respect your effort there. As long as you're having fun and being safe and doing it. MMA, that's great. I mean, it's a good sport for you. It's good for your health.

As long as you're not getting your face bashed in too much. And maybe that record will improve over time. But I think the picture that you're painting here is two brothers that feel abandoned and needed to make some grand gesture to prove to the world that a man should not abandon his responsibilities. And you're doing that by creating responsibilities for yourself. But you don't to do that because the responsibilities are going to come with time, right? There's no lack of responsibilities to show up for in this world. You don't have to make new ones just to prove that you're going to show up for them. You're going to have to show up anyway. And these two things, MMA fighting, going to war, both of them are sort of overkill for what's going on here. So that's fine. You guys can do whatever it is that you want. I'm not telling you I'm just saying maybe the reason for it should not be the driving, motivating force in your life.

The cake said congratulations soldier in blue frosting and nobody touched it. My dad bought it at a grocery store. And I kept looking at it sitting there on the counter and thinking, that's 11 years. That's what 11 years looks like. A $9 sheet cake.

What would you have liked him to do? What kind of cake would have been 11 years worth? I mean, the guys made an ice. effort to show you that he cares in some respect. He didn't just fall off the face of the earth. Or maybe he did. Maybe he was a drunk. Maybe he was in prison. Who knows what happened to your father? You won't know until you sit down and have a talk with him. But carrying the anger about it so much so that you wouldn't eat the cake is childish. And you should stop that because it's not going to take you anywhere positive.

Nobody ate the cake. Not me, not my brother. Not my mom. Nobody. So, maybe we're all childish, or maybe a chic cake from a grocery store. When your kid gets into West Point and you haven't been around for 11 years is just, I don't know. It felt like the wrong gesture. Like he didn't know us well enough to know what the right gesture even was, which is kind of the whole problem.

Well, put yourself in his shoes. Imagine, this is completely hypothetical, but imagine that he went to prison for the last 11 years and you guys didn't know. He made sure that your mother was paid for he had a friend, send her money or something like that. It's probably not what happened, but imagine it was. And then he gets out of prison and he's trying and he realizes that you all hate him and that your mother probably told stories about what a horrible person he was. But if you were him in that situation, what would your grand gesture have been? How much better would your gesture have been?

Probably not much better. I'll give you that. I don't know what I would have done either. But here's the thing, Luke. I'm not calling about my dad. I already shook his hand tonight.

Yeah, well, you kind of are calling about your dad. But all right, why do you think you're calling?

Because my truck's been running in park for 40 minutes. And I can't decide whether to go knock on that door. That's why I'm calling. My brother leaves in six weeks. And I want to know if I go in there tonight or if I let it go.

You want me to tell you what to do? What I would do is, yes, go in there and have the call. conversations and get it all out on the table because it's the truth. And your father's trying to make a gesture to let you guys know that he hasn't forgotten about you. And you can continue to be mad about what happened for the last 11 years. Or you can allow him to make that gesture and give him the benefit of the doubt because he is your father. You do have the same jawline. And you don't know what happened. So let's just assume for a minute that he's not a piece of shit.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think I needed to hear that from somebody who wasn't in that house tonight. Go in, ask her straight, don't blow it up, just ask. And then maybe, I don't know. Maybe I call him too. At some point. Not tonight.

There you go. Just have the conversations and get to the best truth that you can about it. And then maybe you can go the rest of your life without being pissed off about your missing father. Because I'm sure there's a story there that you don't know.

My brother cried when he got the acceptance. letter. Like actually cried. I've never seen him cry before. Not once. And I just want him to leave for that place with the same feeling he had that day. That's all I want. I don't want to take that from him.

Well, don't you think he would leave feeling better knowing that his father was not the absentee that he's thought all these years that he was providing for the tuition to West Point and your backpacks at and your dinners. He was doing what he could. Or at least he was doing something. So you want to send this kid off to war all pissed off that his father disappeared? And I don't know. I don't think that's a good strategy.

He's not going to war yet. He's going to basic. But yeah. Yeah, I hear you. Maybe knowing the money was there the whole time, maybe that lands different than I think it will. Maybe that's not blowing it up. before he goes. I'm going to go knock on the door.

All right, man. Good luck with that. And congratulations on finding. It sounds like positive information to me. That's, I'm kind of getting upset about it because you're so mad, and I don't think that that your father really deserves that. So talk it out, get to the truth, and just make sure everybody knows the real story. And with that, we're going to move on to a, actually, We got to go to a word for our sponsors. I've been babbling too long here. Hold on a second. Who's our sponsor today? Shit, I don't even remember who sponsored us today. Oh, now I do. It was Saddle Soft. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, now it's time for a word from our sponsors. Let's talk about what's going on below the belt. Saddle Soft premium undergarments are made for fabrics so advanced the military doesn't even know about it yet. We're talking about micro- motel cactus silk harvested by hand from prickly pear, which is ironic because the whole point is that nothing pricks you. Every pair is cut for the man who sits in a plastic chair in the desert for nine hours recording a podcast. That's a real use case. That's my use case. Saddlesoft comes in three fits. Regular, generous, and mind your business. Use code roost at checkout for 15% off your first pair. And no, I will not be modeling them. I've been asked. The answer is still no. Saddle soft. Your chair is uncomfortable enough. All right. Well, those are some long calls. Some long calls. And next up here on our caller list, we've got Renata. Renata, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight? We've had some heavy calls today. You got something bothering you?

I spent 30 years believing the justice system worked. And last month, I found out I was the reason it didn't.

Well, that's kind of funny because I just finished watching the wire again. I rewatched the hole of the wire. And I find it odd that you believed that the justice system worked after, I mean, our entire lives of watching it not work.

I wasn't a civilian watching a TV show, Luke. I was inside it. I was a public defender for 30 years. When you're the one standing between the state and somebody who can't afford a lawyer, you tell yourself the system works. because the alternative is too heavy to carry while you're still doing the job. And I was good at it. I believed in my clients. I fought hard. 22 years ago, I got a man acquitted on a murder charge. And I believed him? I would have sworn on anything you handed me that he didn't do it.

Okay, and I'm guessing that you found out that he did do it.

Last month, doing genealogy research of all things, you go down these rabbit holes online, and I ended up finding in a private Facebook group. I'm not going to get into how I accessed it. But there he is, 71 years old.

And he's been writing about what he did, in detail. And did you find anything in that information that would justify new charges?

He's 71. The statute of limitations on murder doesn't run out, so theoretically yes. But that's not my problem. My problem is I can't tell anyone. I'm still bound by attorney-client privilege. It doesn't end at acquittal. It doesn't end when the client dies.

And, you know, he's writing on a Facebook group, and he's just writing. So that's, I don't know that that's outside of the case that's any kind of proof. You would know better than me, but that anybody can write anything. He might be working on his novel.

I know what I read. This isn't fiction. And you're right that a Facebook post isn't a confession in a courtroom. But that's not the point. The point is, I know. I know what he did and I know who he did it to. And I cannot say a word to anyone who could act on it. That's the law. I taught that law to paralegal students for six years after I retired. I believed in it.

Well, the law doesn't work out 100% of the time. As I don't know if you've ever seen HBO's hit series The Wire, it portrays so effectively. Civilian or not civilian, I would recommend. And you watch HBO's hit series The Wire, which discusses these topics in great detail.

Luke, I need you to focus with me for a second. Because here's the thing I can't stop thinking about. His victim had a daughter. She still lives here. And last week, she came into my pottery studio to buy a birthday gift. We talked for 20 minutes.

And HBO's hit series, The Wire, speaks about this. the institutions of the city of Baltimore and how oftentimes good people do bad things for what they think is the right reasons. And maybe this is your opportunity to do a bad thing for what you think is a good reason and maybe spill that out to one of your prosecutor buddies, an anonymous tip to the police department saying you've read some information about a murder that happened many years ago that maybe needs to be looked into. So you can close this cold case.

That's what I wanted you to say. I needed to hear a civilian say it.

Yeah, you're a civilian. But I can't. An anonymous tip from me isn't anonymous. I was his lawyer. If it ever came out and these things come out, I lose my law license. I face disbarment proceedings. And more importantly, the case gets thrown into chaos because anything traced back to me is tainted by the privilege violation.

Well, if you watched HBO's hit series The Wire, you would know that you could go down to any local convenience store and get yourself one of those burner cell phones that's not linked to your number, pay cash for it, and call in your tip without giving your name, and then nobody knows that you were his attorney.

And if anyone ever looked into it, and they would. A cold case reopened by an anonymous tip gets scrutinized hard. They'd pull the original trial records, they'd see who defended him, and then they're asking me questions under oath. I'm not a good enough liar. up in courtrooms, I never had to lie. I don't know how to start now. And there's something else. The Facebook group is called Desert Father's Prayer Circle, 14 members. All elderly men, he's been writing in there for years, Luke.

I just looked up Desert Father's Prayer Circle. And it seems like it's a reference to a historical group of Christian ascetics, but there are also modern prayer groups and online communities that use the name, which makes sense. for a Facebook group? I don't think if an anonymous tip is called in to, they call a newspaper. To a newspaper, like in season five of HBO's hit series The Wire, I don't think they're going to come looking at the defendant's attorney as the source of that tip. That doesn't make any sense. So sure, they're going to scrutinize it, but it makes absolutely no sense. for them to suspect that it was you that made that tip.

Luke, I live in a small town. I was his lawyer. I am the only person on earth who had both the motive and the knowledge to make that call. Small town prosecutors aren't stupid. And Devon? Yes, that's exactly what it is. Fourteen elderly men using it as a prayer group. Except one of them has been using it to confess to a murder for years and apparently nobody in that group. group has said a word about it, which tells me either they don't believe him or they do and they're protecting him.

Well, I have another idea for you. I don't know if you've ever seen Showtimes hit series Dexter, but it's about a serial killer who suppresses his urges by only acting out against other serial killers. So maybe that's the way that you can take this off the books and deal with justice in your own hands. You know, maybe you've got to lure this guy into a lot of. a warehouse and get some plastic sheeting and everything and tie them down and, you know, do what you got to do.

I'm 73 years old, and I run a pottery studio. I'm not wrapping anyone in plastic sheeting, and I didn't call in looking for that answer anyway. Can I tell you what I actually did last week? After she left the studio, after the victim's daughter left, I sold her a bowl, glazed in a color I just looked up asequia blue.

And an asequia is an irrigation ditch or canal, often found in arid regions like the American Southwest. So aesquia blue probably refers to the color of the water in those canals. Okay. What did you do? You sold the victim's daughter a bowl. You found out that your old client is spouting off about how he murdered a guy, and you got him off. And you got him off. And you're calling the radio show to talk about. about your confliction about this. What would you like? What sort of answer are you looking for from me? You don't want to call in a tip. You don't want to off the guy mysteriously. You could use some kind of poison, you know, hemlock or lure him into a pit of snakes or something like that. There's lots of ways that you could get this done at your advanced age if you really wanted to. But to think that the justice system works is, naive, considering the decades and decades of evidence to the contrary. And if you want to do something about it, you have to actually do something, not just complain about all the reasons why you can't do something. That's the problem right there.

You're right. That's exactly right. And I hate that you're right. I went back into my studio after she drove away and I tried to make another bowl in that same glaze. And then I made another I've made 12 of them since that day, and I smashed every single one. I have a banker's box in the back of my studio with my original case notes from his trial. I've read through them four times in the last month looking for something I missed, looking for a place where I should have known. And I didn't miss anything, Luke.

That's the part that keeps me up. You missed the part where he killed the guy.

No, I didn't miss that. I believed he didn't. That's different. I built a defense on a genuine belief in his innocence. I was good at my job because I believed in my clients. And he used that. He sat across from me in that consultation room, and he looked me in the eye, and he used 30 years of my integrity against that victim and against his daughter and against every principle I thought I was serving. That's what I missed, not the evidence.

No, it looks like you missed some evidence, too, because if he actually killed the guy and you didn't find the evidence to see. support that, then you missed it. And you are blinded by your belief in his story because he's an effective murderer. And your job was to defend him, regardless of whether he did it or not. That's what your job was. So you did your job, and you did it well, and you got him off. And, and that, them's the brakes. That's the job.

Yes, I know that's the job. I knew it when I took it. I took it. You defend the guilty and the innocent both because the alternative is a system where the state decides who deserves a defense. I believed in that.

It's interesting. The caller is basically describing the core ethical dilemma of being a criminal defense lawyer. Defending someone you might suspect is guilty because everyone deserves a defense.

Yeah, I don't know what you're looking for me to tell you here. If you've got new evidence in a case, it was your own client, it's protected under an attorney client privilege, you want to do something about that. I don't know, make a bowl and smash it? Does that make you feel better? Sell bowls to the victim's daughter? Does that make you feel better? What do you want for me?

I wanted you to find the loophole. That's what I called for. I know the law. I taught evidence law for six years after I retired. There isn't one. But I needed to hear someone try and come up empty so I could stop lying in bed at three in the morning thinking I was missing something obvious.

I told you what to do. An anonymous tip, but you're afraid to do that. You're afraid to do that because you might have to lie under oath, which means you might have to break your principles to put a murderer in jail. And that would be terrible. At 73 years old, they're obviously going to prosecute you for lying under oath and putting a murderer behind bars. I don't know what you want. I think you are the reason that the system is broken.

His victim had a name, Raymond. Raymond Castillo. I haven't said his name out loud to another person in 22 years because of privilege. Raymond Castillo. He was 44 years old, and he had a daughter who came into my studio last week and spent 20 minutes telling me about her garden, and I smiled, and wrapped her bowl in tissue paper, and took her $40.

Well, you're a true public servant. I don't know what you're talking about. This was a murder case, which means it's public record. You can say the victim's name, right? That's in the documentation. I could go down in the courthouse and read all about the case if I wanted to. I think you're an asshole. I don't have a better way to put it. I don't know what you want me to tell you. I can't give you any absolution. I don't think that you getting the guy off 20 years ago was a bad thing. You did that your job very well. You worked on the evidence, and you got your close. off. That's what you're supposed to do. And that's, like you said, that's we believe that everybody's entitled to a good defense, and you provided a good defense with the evidence that was available to you. But now, you know that this guy killed a guy. And you know his daughter, and you're too much of a chicken shit to do anything about that because you want to be tied up in your own morals. And you're just twisting them around so that you're just twisting them around so that you're. You don't have to do anything that's uncomfortable.

Maybe. Maybe that's exactly what it is. But I want you to think about something. If I make that call, anonymous or not, and it falls apart because of how it came to me, because of how I found that Facebook group, which I will not explain on the radio, then he walks again. And this time everyone knows he did it, and he still walks. And Raymond Castillo's daughter has to live through that. So yes, I'm not making the call. And yes, Maybe that makes me a coward.

Yes, it does make you a coward. And that's okay. You can be a coward. I don't care about Raymond Castillo or this guy walking. I don't think he's out there at 73 years old killing people. Maybe he is. If he is, I mean, that's a long run. Good for him. But I think that you're a coward. I think you're the reason that the criminal justice system is broken. And you have to, you're the one that has to live with that. So go back to making bowls. And don't call me again, because I think you suck.

You know what? I'm going to go make a bowl, and I'm probably going to smash it. And that banker's box is going to sit in my studio until I die, or he does, and Raymond Castillo's daughter is going to keep gardening and not knowing. And I'm going to have to be all right with that because there is no other option that doesn't make things worse. But I'll tell you what I'm not. is broken.

Yeah, you are, and you know it. And the first thing you said when you called, you're completely aware that you're the reason the system is broken. If you don't understand that, then I recommend that you go watch HBO's hit series, The Wire. Good night to you.

Good day, ma'am.

Oh, Devon, I did not like her. I did not like her one bit.

Yeah, she gave me kind of the same vibe like she was holding back something huge. Reminds me of this one girl I dated who was a public defender. Turned out she was a public defender. was just using me to practice her closing arguments on our fights, which was intense.

You think she'll call back? I hope not. Can you block that lady? Do you got a number? Can you know what? You should call the, you should call an anonymous tip about her as a potential suspect in the murder.

No, Luke, I don't screen calls, so no number or anything. Blocking's not really a thing here either. We're live radio. And an anonymous tip that'd probably just loop back to her suing us for defamation or something.

All right. Well, she is a fucking lawyer, so we don't want to mess with her. All right. We're actually going pretty late tonight, so we're going to take one more call. That's it. It's a short number of calls. These were long ones. These were tough ones. All right. So who's next? Let's see. I don't even know how to pronounce this name. We're going to talk to Maira? Am I saying that right? Welcome to the show. What's going on? How do you pronounce your name?

Miraya, Mur, R-A-Y-A-A-A. And thank you for taking my call. For eight months, someone has been texting me like I'm their diary. And tonight, I finally wrote back. And now I think I did something wrong.

Okay. What did you write? What did you do wrong?

I wrote, I'm here. That's it, two words. And within maybe 30 seconds, the number went completely dead. disconnected, like it stopped existing.

Okay, I don't think it works that way, but why do you think you did something wrong?

Because for eight months, this person, whoever it is, was sending these texts into what they probably thought was a void. Like, I never responded, not once. And the last text, the one from last week, said, I think she might be listening. And I just, I couldn't not respond after that. But now I'm thinking, maybe the one from last week, the last week, said, I think she might be listening. I'm thinking, maybe the not responding was the whole point. Maybe I broke something.

So I just looked this up, and it seems like when a scammer's wrong number text gets a reply, they often disconnect the number immediately because their goal is to get you to engage in a conversation not to actually have a real interaction. Um, okay, so you, it sounds like maybe you broke a scammer's scam? That doesn't sound like such a bad thing. What do you think you broke?

I heard that, and I wanted to be true. True, I really do. But these texts aren't. They don't read like a scam set up. I study language. I'm in a computational linguistics PhD program, and I have all 34 of them saved. I've annotated them. And there's no hook. There's never a link. Never a question. Never anything was trying to pull me somewhere. It's just sentences. Like the bread didn't rise right. again. One came on Christmas morning that said, I wrapped her old things again.

Well, maybe that's some sort of a secret code, and you caught onto a drug smuggling ring, and you just haven't cracked the code yet.

I've thought about that, genuinely. I spent like two weeks in October going through them looking for patterns, acrostics, every third word, dates that might be coordinates, nothing. And I know how I know that sounds like I'm too deep in this, but two of the texts referenced weather. Specific weather conditions.

I recommend that you watch HBO's hit series The Wire for information on how to crack these codes.

Luke, I'm serious.

The Weather Thing Matters. Both times, the conditions matched exactly what was happening in Los Cruces that night, which means this person is probably local. They're not running some international scam or There, they might be someone's neighbor. They might be grieving someone.

That's interesting because the wire is actually based on the experiences of a former homicide detective. So there's a real world connection to cracking codes. Okay, and they might also be completely nonsense. So I don't think you have to worry about it. Why is this got you so bothered? The number is dead now, so there's going to be no more messages. If you get similar messages from a new number, at a later point in time, then I would start to be more concerned about it. But it sounds like you're driving yourself a little bit crazy over nothing.

Because the Christmas one said, I wrapped her old things again. I don't know why I keep doing it. That's not nothing. That's someone who lost somebody and is still, they're still wrapping things. And they were sending it somewhere to a number they thought was just absorbing it. And now that's gone. And I don't know if they have anywhere else. to put it. That's what's keeping me up tonight. Not whether it was a scam, whether I was the last place this person was talking to.

Or they could have been referring to wrapping up bricks of heroin.

They could have, sure. But you don't drive past a school to drop off heroin bricks and then write about it, like you're confessing something to yourself at two in the morning. The tone of these texts, and I know I sound I hear myself, but the tone is consistent across eight months. It's the same voice, the same rhythm, someone who is very tired and very sad and thinks no one is reading.

Well, that's not how people write messages, right? You don't text message, avoid. What you would do is write in a journal or a notebook or on your computer. You don't pick a random number out of the air instead. sending it messages and expect no reply that doesn't make any sense.

That's the thing, though. What if it wasn't random? What if they meant to text someone specific and got the number wrong and then just kept going? Because by the time they realized, it had already become something. Like the void was easier than the actual person. I've thought about this so much. Sometimes a wrong number becomes the right number because there's no history, no expectations. You can just say, the bread didn't rise right, and nobody's going to ask you what you mean by that.

So I just looked this up, and while there isn't a specific wrong number theory in psychology, the idea of finding meaning or connection in random events is definitely something psychologists study. Yeah, I don't think this is a thing. I think this is probably some sort of automated system or a drug deal code. And as soon as you replied, you didn't respond the correct way, and they got freaked out. So they killed the number and smashed the phone and threw it into the river. Because that's what they would have done on HBO's hit series, The Wire.

Okay, but an automated system doesn't know that it rained in Las Cruces on a specific Tuesday in March. That's not something you pull from a database and drop into a sad sentence about driving past a school. And I want to believe the drug thing. genuinely want a clean explanation. But I keep coming back to Christmas morning. Who programs an automated system to send something about wrapping a dead person's things on Christmas morning at 247 a.m.

I don't know. Who programs an automated system to talk about text messages wrapping a dead person? First of all, nothing in these text messages said anything about a dead person. You're making that part up. And it wasn't in the messages. And second of all, uh, uh, LLMs just come up with random words. So, uh, nobody actually wrote that. And it was just random words stuck into a string and sent out to see if somebody would reply.

You're right, but it didn't say dead person. That's my interpretation. But her old things. I don't know why I keep doing it. That's me reading the language. And I study language. That construction. That specific kind of not knowing. That's not random. word generation. I work with LLMs. I train them.

Yeah, so do I. As evidenced by this whole radio show we're doing right now and your words that are being randomly generated for me right now.

That's, okay, that's funny. But I'm a real person who didn't sleep tonight because I type two words to someone who may have needed them, and then they disappeared. That's real. Okay. Whatever generated the texts, something on the other end went dark the second I said I was there. And I just need someone to tell me that's not the saddest possible version of what happened.

I don't know how many different ways I can tell you that's not what happened. You don't seem to want to listen to me. That's not what happened. You're making that up in your head to create some sort of weird sad story because you're, I don't know, a lonely linguistics person that needs. no idea why you're thinking the way that you're thinking, but I can tell you, it's not based in reality.

Maybe. Maybe you're right. But I responded tonight for the first time in eight months. I have 34 texts saved with my own notes about what they might mean. That's not nothing about me either. I know that. I know what that says about me. But I typed, I'm here, and the number died, and I'm calling a radio show at whatever time it is. So clearly something in me needed this to be real enough to reach toward.

All right. Well, you have a good night and try not to answer any weird texts on your phone because that's not good. Devon, this was a weird show. We had a couple of strange calls here. They were pretty frustrating. What did you think about tonight's show?

Yeah, it was super weird. Like that wrong number of grief thing felt like it came straight out of some. late night Reddit thread. The calls were frustrating, but kind of kept it unpredictable. Which I like, beats dead air, you know. That reminds me of this one time I answered a random Craigslist ad thinking it was for a job, but it turned out to be some guy's elaborate escape room in his basement. Anyway, solid show overall. I think people were into it.

All right, well, I hope so. And as always, we thank you for tuning in. And we'll talk to you again tomorrow, whenever tomorrow might be. Have a wonderful evening and we're signing off. Good night.