Episode 56: The Tattoo That Saved a Life

All right, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back. I'm Luke, and this is Luke at the Roost. It's the late night call-in radio show where you can call in and tell me what's going on in your life, and I'll give you the very best advice that I can. Today is Thursday, May 21st. It's 12.45 a.m. here in Animus, New Mexico. And if you'd like to give us a call, the number to call in is 208-439-5853. That's 208-439, Luke. If you're not near your phone, you'd like to participate in the show. You can do that. You can send us an email to the station at Submissions at Lukeat the Roos.com. If we think your email is clever or funny or interesting, we'll read it on the next show. So, again, the email address is submissions. at Luke at theroost.com. Now, let's check in with our faithful intern, Devon, and see how we're doing for our show tonight. Hey, Devon, welcome back. Are you ready for a show tonight?

Yeah, I'm here and ready to go. Just pulled up some background on that, one story from last week in case it comes up again, and I made sure the booth fan isn't making that buzzing noise tonight. Actually, I was thinking about how my therapist says I should probably stop stress organizing my cereal boxes at 4 a.m. right?

How many cereal boxes do you have that you can organize them?

I've got seven right now, all lined up by expiration date in the cabinet above the sink. It's not a big collection or anything, just whatever's on sale. But sorting them by height and then by flavor helps me feel like the night isn't completely falling apart. My therapist keeps saying I should try journaling instead, but that just makes me think about my ex and the time we got locked out of our apartment for three days.

Okay, at seven boxes of cereal, there's a lot of boxes of cereal. consider eating something else. Here's what I'm going to solve your serial sorting problem for you right now. So what I want you to do tonight when you go home is take all of the cereal boxes and empty them into one trash bag. So you've got one like glade, glade. Does glade make trash? Yeah, one glade trash bag full of cereal. And they're just all mixed together in one cereal concoction.

Yeah, that could work, I guess. definitely stop me from sorting them every night, though I'd probably end up eating the whole thing in one sitting, like some kind of desperate cereal soup. It reminds me of the time my ex and I tried living off nothing but pantry scraps for a month after we both quit our jobs on the same day. I'll try it when I get home.

Very good. And here's another tip for you. Don't eat cereal. It's not good for you. There's no cereal. Even if you're buying those expensive, like, flex seed cereals, just don't do that. Eat eggs instead. Eggs is the way to go. It's cheaper and it's much better for you. So just hardboil a bunch of eggs and eat those instead of cereal. And then you can organize your eggs by height and width and girth.

Eggs instead, got it. I actually used to hard boil a dozen every week back when my ex and I were trying that whole meal prep thing after we both got fired from the same gas station. Organizing them by size sounds way less stressful than the cereal situation, though I might still end up sorting them by color in the fridge at 3 a.m. I'll pick some up on the way home and give it a shot.

Why are you always talking about your ex, Devon? How many exes do you have?

I don't know. She just comes up whenever I'm talking about organizing stuff or late night habits because we used to do all that together and I'm still working through it. I've got three exes total if I'm counting the situation ships that lasted more than a couple months. Eggs might actually help me stop bringing her up every other sentence, though.

I think that's a great idea. Start eating the fucking eggs because nobody cares about your ex, all right?

Yeah, eggs from now on, I got it. Sorry for bringing her up again. It gets old fast and nobody needs to hear that on the show. I'll just focus on the hard-boiled stuff and see if it actually cuts down on the late-night organizing, too.

All right. Well, today is May 21st. We're moving the studio to Alpine on May 28th. Are you ready? You got everything in order?

Yeah, I'm getting stuff squared away on my end, like making sure all the research notes are backed up. And the booth setup is prepped for the new space. I actually mapped out the drive to Alpine already, so I don't get lost on the way. that time I moved cross-country with nothing but a duffel bag and three mismatched socks. Should be good to go by the 28th.

All right. We'll be ready in Alpine. Let's get the show started, okay? Because we've had enough of you. Let's see. Who do we got on our caller list today? This is an interesting one. I think it is. Welcome to the show Remedios. Am I saying that correctly? Is your name Remedios?

Yes. most people say it wrong the first time. You got it. I have held the hands of 212 people while they died, and I cannot walk to the end of my mother's hallway.

Is your mother dying?

Six weeks ago, pancreatic cancer. She moved in with me because I'm, because of what I do, because everyone agreed I was the obvious choice. And I am. I am the obvious choice. That's the paradox I'm calling about.

What's a paradox about that? So you're a hospice nurse, and I'm sorry to hear about your mother. That's no fun, but it's good that you could have been there to help her. Why is that a paradox?

Social worker, but it doesn't matter. The paradox is that I do this every day. I sit with strangers while they die. I coach families through exactly what my family is going through right now. I am good at it. I am genuinely good at it, and I cannot do it. I leave the room.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's all right. That makes sense. You don't have to be good at it in your own life. I mean, a therapist isn't a therapist for themselves. They have their own therapist to go to. So, I mean, you should have somebody else that is not your social worker, but probably a therapist, to talk to you about what's going on in your own family. People aren't generally qualified to do the thing that they do for others. for themselves.

I know that. I know that intellectually. I have said that exact thing to families. But here's what I can't shake. When I leave the room, my mother knows. She knows what I'm doing. She has watched me do this for 17 years. She knows every move.

Well, you just said that she was already dead, so how can she know?

No, she's dying. She's not gone. She's in my house right now. She's awake probably. She asks me questions, professional questions. What does it feel like at the end, really? And I answer her in the same voice I use with strangers, and she calls it my robot voice.

That's incredibly tough. Pancreatic cancer has one of the lowest survival rates with only about 13% of people living five years after diagnosis. Well, I don't know. If you say you're good at this child, you've done it for a long time. It's a difficult job for sure. I mean, I've sat with a couple of people as they were dying and it is hard to do. It's also very interesting to talk to them at the last stages of their life and learn from them what they're feeling, what they're going through, what they wish they had done or didn't do. So, I mean, all you can do is tell your mother that, right? That, look, I haven't been there myself. I've only seen this through the eyes of my clients and other patients. But you don't know. No. You don't know what it is. You just know what you've heard.

That's the thing, though. She doesn't want the clinical answer. She wants her daughter. And when I'm in that room, I don't know how to be her daughter and also be the person who knows what's coming. Those two things won't fit in my body at the same time. Three days ago, I sat in my car in my own driveway for 40 minutes after a shift, and I think she watched me from the window the whole time.

I think she probably understands that.

And in this situation, in your own own family. I mean, your job is to be the daughter and to be there from her and to ask her those questions. You know, what is it that you're feeling, Mom, at the end stages of your life? She should be giving you the information and she's the one that's going through the process. You're not there to guide her through the process. You're there to be with her and to get whatever information you can from her. Because I'm sure she wants you to know that going forward so you can prepare for it in your life.

You're right that she should be the one talking. And she is. She talks. The problem is I stop listening the right way. I start assessing. I catch myself noting her coloring, her breathing patterns, how she's holding her hands. I turn her into a patient without meaning to, and then I hate myself for it, and I leave. She has a name for it. She says, you're filing me.

point about not being able to apply your professional skills to your own life. It reminds me of the concept of physician heal thyself from ancient proverbs. That saying physician heal thyself actually comes from the Bible, specifically Luke 423. Well, you know, all you can do is the best that you can do. It's a hard situation for everybody involved. And it's going to affect you emotionally, spiritually, and probably physically, too, because I'm actually living in your house that's got a, uh, I mean, obviously you're not following the normal routines that you would if she wasn't there. So you're probably not sleeping as well as you normally would. And give yourself a break. You don't have to hate yourself for this. Just do the best that you can. Try to be there for your mom. Try not to, uh, to file her or, um, or treat her as a patient. Just try to be as helpful and as present as you can be with her. And give yourself a break when you don't meet that. that measure.

I hear you, and I know you're right. What I keep circling back to, though, and this is why I called a radio show at whatever time it is instead of sleeping, is whether the fact that I can do this for strangers but not for her means something. Does it mean the work has been hollow? Or does it mean the opposite? That the love is what breaks it?

Well, I don't know that it's broken, and I don't think that it's hollow either. I think you're trying to be. helpful to people that are going through something that you can't understand until you've gone through it yourself, which is paradoxical, I suppose, in its own right. But I don't think that you can say love has broken it. I think that when it's your own family, when it's somebody that you are close to, you can't be objective. And you shouldn't be because you're not at work. You know, you're not there as her caretaker. She should have. a caretaker that is not you. And I mean, you can inform that caretakers, I don't know, treatment plan or, I mean, you can be an advocate for your mother since you know what should be happening and what should not be happening. But it's not on you to be the sole source of, I don't know, spiritual guidance or end of life consulting.

I have a colleague who comes. She's good. My mother likes her. And I am grateful, and I am ashamed in equal measure every time she walks through my door to do what I cannot do in my own house. But what you just said? That I shouldn't be objective. I think that's what I needed someone to say out loud, because I have been treating the inability to be objective as a failure. Like I'm broken. Like 17 years of this work and I still can't do it when it counts.

Maybe it counts differently here. Maybe it's supposed to.

No, this is a different situation because the fact that it's your mother that's going through this, it affects you.

It's going to cloud and change the way that you feel because you're also going through a trauma right now. So, I mean, you're not performing at your top performance level. You can't. It can't not affect you. And you need your own support to go through this. So don't blame yourself for not. being the best version of your professional self possible because, I mean, consider it like, this is sort of bereavement for you. This is like a sick day for you, but I mean, lots of sick days concurrently. So you also need support and you're not in a position. You shouldn't be in a position and it's not expected of you to be in a position to perform the way that you would at work. You're not at work. You're in your own house. days.

I haven't thought of it that way. I keep a notebook. Every patient I've ever accompanied. Their names, the dates they died. 212 entries. That notebook lives in my car. I have never once brought it inside my house.

No, and you probably shouldn't bring it in your house because it's, I mean, your house is your place for your own mental health. It's like a sanctuary for you where you can turn those things off because you have to be able to, um, to go to a place or get yourself in a headspace where you're not just thinking about death and dying all the time. That's not healthy for you. So there's going to be some level of compartmentalization. And leaving that book outside your living area is, I think, a good idea and a good practice. But I think it's interesting that you've sat with that many people that have died and talked to them at their last moment. 12 people. That's a lot of conversations. What have you learned about about death and dying and what people have, I don't know, wanted or regretted or expressed to you about that?

Most of them want the same things at the end. They want to know they mattered. They want someone to stay in the room. Not to fix anything. Just to stay. They don't want to be alone and they don't want to be lied to. Those are the two things over and over, two hundred and twelve times. And my mother is asking me to stay in the room and I keep leaving.

Yeah, well, I mean, you have to do what you have to do for yourself. And you don't have to feel guilty about that. But also, remember that it's, it's your mother. And if she wants you to stay, do the best you can to do that. But if you have to leave, you have to leave. And you can explain that to her. You can say, look, this is difficult for me. I'm doing my best here, but I've got a, I've got to decompress or I have to bring my mind elsewhere for a little while. Because, I mean, you still have to go about your normal life and work and things, right? And you can't be having your whole life consumed by other people dying at all times or you're going to have a breakdown. Like, you can't support that level of stress.

She knows. She knows why I leave. That's almost worse than if she didn't. She said something to me last week. She said, Mia, I taught you how to do this job, and now I need you to do it badly. And I didn't know what she meant. I'm still not sure I know what she meant.

Do it badly. Just be bad at it and stay anyway.

Yeah, that's probably what she meant.

And, you know, she's your mother. So it's a special gift of mothers to make you feel guilty about absolutely everything. That's, I don't know that they mean it, but that's what they do. So, you know, take that into consideration too. And at some point, I mean, like I've said several times now, you do the best you can, but don't let her or anybody else force you into a place where you're not feeling healthy. If you have to leave the room for whatever reason it is, that's okay. It's all right for you to do that. Just as as you're able to, go back and continue trying. But when it's time for you to leave the room, leave the room. And there's nothing wrong with that. And if anybody tries to make you feel guilty about it, don't worry, because it's the right move. And you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of anybody else.

She wasn't making me feel guilty. That's the thing. She was giving me permission, do it badly, and stay anyway. She was telling me she was telling me she. She doesn't need the professional version.

She just needs me in the room. Even a bad version of me. Even the version that's filing her and checking her breathing and wanting to run, she wants that version too.

Yeah, and that's understandable. But what I'm telling you is that just because that's what she wants doesn't mean that's what you have to give her at all times. I'm saying do your best to provide as much of that as you can safely for yourself, taking your own mental health and stress level into consideration.

I know. You're right. I think I called tonight because I needed someone outside of it to tell me that the leaving is an abandonment. That's the word I've been carrying. Abandonment. Every time I walk out of that room, I feel like I am abandoning her. And I have spent 17 years making sure no one dies abandoned. And now I am the one doing it.

No, you're not. You're taking a respite from it. You continue to go back. Right? So if you left and didn't go back, that's abandonment. But if you left because you need to sleep or you left because you just can't handle it at the moment, you need to breathe or meditate or do whatever it is to keep yourself level, that's not abandonment. That's taking care of yourself so that you can then go back and provide more support to her. Because you have to keep making sure that your own batteries are charged. If you get too depleted, either physically or spiritually, emotionally, it is if you get depleted and you have nothing left to give, then you being there is, I mean, I would argue, dangerous for her. You're going to get, you're going to get frustrated, you're going to get snippy, you're going to say things you regret, and it's going to become harmful. So leaving when you need to leave, you know when you need to leave. Do that and make sure that you go back when you're ready.

Charged, yeah. I know what depleted looks like. I've watched it happen to colleagues. I just never thought I'd be the one, sitting in a driveway for 40 minutes, unable to go inside my own house. I thought I was, I don't know what I thought, that I was built differently for this, that 17 years had made me something other than a person who is losing her mother.

Nope, right now you are nothing but a person that is losing her mother, and that's going to affect you. It's going to be difficult, and all you can do is the best you can do to be there for her. sure that you're taking as much care of yourself as you can. So it's all right to sacrifice a little bit, but like I said, don't allow yourself to become completely depleted or you're not of any use to anybody.

Thank you. I mean that. I should go. It's late and she might need something and I want to. I think I want to try to go sit with her. Just sit, not assess.

All right. Good luck. And I'm sorry to hear about your mom. I hope it all works out the best. way that it possibly can. And you two have a wonderful night. Next up on our color line, we've got Garrett. Garrett, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life tonight?

I did the thing I was legally and morally required to do, and I think I wrecked a kid's life, and he sits in my third period class three days a week.

All right, what is it that you did?

I'm a PE teacher. Eight months ago, I saw bruises on a student during class, and I reported it to CPS, required to do. That's not a choice. That's the law. And they investigated, found nothing, closed the case. And then somehow, word got out that a report had been filed, and the kid's father lost his job over it. Family's been in financial crisis ever since.

Well, I don't think that's your fault at all. I mean, if they did an investigation and found nothing and he was actually fired from his work, he's probably got a lawsuit there against his employer. You can't just fire somebody because he's because a report has been filed if there was no findings. Like, people have to be actually found guilty of something.

Yeah, maybe. I don't know if they pursued that. But here's the thing that keeps me up at night. I don't actually know if those bruises were from abuse. This kid's skateboards competitively, like serious level. And I found out two weeks after the CPS visit that he won a regional amateur competition. So, in hindsight, the bruises could have made complete sense.

Yeah. But it's not your job to determine that, right? You're not a bruise investigator. You're a mandated reporter. So if you see unexplained bruises on a kid, you actually have to, in his best interest, report that, which you did. And then they did their investigation and found nothing. So if anybody's at fault here, it sounds like it's the employer of the father who let somebody go. So he does have options as far as the financial hardship goes. If he's let go from work for something like that, that he could look at unemployment and such. So it's not completely you. You didn't ruin anybody's life. And they have some recourse here.

I hear you. I do. And logically, I know that's the right answer. But this kid, Marco, last week, he looked me in the eye and asked me if I knew why anyone would report a family for no reason. And I just stood there. He doesn't know it was me. And I said something like, people are just trying to do the right thing sometimes, which is the most hollow thing. I've ever said out loud.

And there's something else.

The CPS form had a box for confidence level. How confident are you in your suspicion? And I checked moderate.

Man, that's rough. It's like he's stuck between doing what's right and the really heavy consequences. Yeah, it sounds like you did the right thing. You did exactly what you were supposed to do. I mean, moderate is not sure. Moderate's not. I mean, you saw bruises. What else were you going to do? I mean, maybe you could have talked to the kid about it. and said, where did these bruises come from? But I don't know what you've been trained to do as a mandated reporter. I've never been in a position like that myself. But it sounds to me like you did exactly what you should have done with the right intention. And he should not have been fired for that if an investigation found nothing.

Right. And that's the paradox I keep circling back to, which is why I called tonight. The law exists to protect kids. I followed the law to protect this specific kid. And the outcome is that this specific kid is now worse off than he was before I tried to protect him. That's not a technicality. That's just what happened. And I know you're saying the employer is the one who caused the financial damage. And you're probably right, but I'm the first domino. I set everything in motion, and I'll tell you something I haven't told anyone.

Okay, what is this that you haven't told anyone?

I've been grading him a little higher than I should. Not like dramatically, but enough that I notice it. And I know exactly what that is. That's guilt. I'm paying a debt I can't actually pay with extra credit points on a fitness assessment. And I hate that I'm doing it. I hate it because it doesn't help him. It doesn't fix anything. And it means every time I hand back his grades, I'm reminded that I'm the guy who can't look a 17-year-old in the eye and answer a straight question.

I just looked up teacher grading for guilt. And it turns out teacher guilt is a lot. a real thing, often about feeling bad for things like not grading assignments at home, but this is a whole different level. Well, I mean, consider that just because the investigation found nothing and the kid says that nothing was going on, that doesn't necessarily mean that nothing was going on. He did have bruises. You did see the bruises. You don't know where they came from. And you would be in a worse position if you find out later that there was some. sort of abuse going on. So the mandated reporting is there. It's not perfect, but it's there to try and, like you said, protect kids and give them a voice when they don't have one. And sometimes it's going to be wrong.

But you did that with the right intention and because you were legally obligated to do it. So I think that you can let yourself off the hook. And it's on the family to take that up with the employer because it's not okay to be to be fired just because a report was filed by a school that found nothing, right? I mean, it sucks that they have to go through anything additional or get lawyers or anything like that, but they do. And that was in the best interest of that kid, whether it worked out the right way or not.

I know. And part of me wants to just take that and hang up and feel better. But here's what I can't shake. You said I can let myself off the hook. And I want that. I genuinely want that.

What I don't think you should do is say anything to the kid or his family. What you could do is say something to the high school administrator, the principal, or somebody like that, and let them know what happened there and the consequences of that and ask them to ask the superintendent or whatever the school has for a lawyer, how to proceed. Because it could be that the school could send a statement to the employer or to the parents and clear up the situation. But you personally did the right thing. And given the circumstances, if that were to happen again, you should do the same thing again. And maybe talk to the administrators of the school and find out if in the future you should talk to the kid or not. What does the training say when you go through that mandated reporter training? Do they tell you to ask questions or do they just tell you report and don't say anything?

They tell you not to investigate. You're not supposed to ask questions. You're not supposed to tip anyone off. You just report. So I did it by the book. But your point about the administrator, I thought about that. The reason I haven't gone there is that the moment I walk into that office, I'm no longer anonymous. And right now, Marco doesn't know it was me. And I genuinely don't know if telling him or anyone makes his life better or just makes me feel better.

Well, no, you're still anonymous because if you tell the school administrator, he's not going to tell the family or the kids. He's going to be even more hesitant to tell anybody because there's going to be legal ramifications for the school. Right? So whatever you tell them, the administration, of the school about the situation, they're going to keep hush, hush, hush, until they've run it through every lawyer and found the best way possible. But I think if there's a chance there that you could help rectify that situation quickly, talking to the administration of the school is the way to start that. And you don't have to do anything to feel better. You can feel better just by deciding to feel better because you didn't do anything wrong.

Yeah, yeah, I hear that. The administration angle. is actually something I can do. That's a real thing I can do tomorrow morning. And maybe that's what I need it. Not absolution exactly, but a next step. Because I think I've been so stuck in the loop of did I cause this? Did I not cause this? That I forgot I could still move forward in some direction that isn't just quietly bumping up his grade on the pacer test.

Yeah, you didn't cause anything. The employer caused the financial hardship. All you did was try and take care of a kid to the best of your and to the letter of the law and to the policy of your employer. So you did the right thing. You should continue to operate that way, but it does make sense to ask some clarifying questions of the administration to make sure that, you know, the policy is correct. And maybe if anything needs to change, they can take that into consideration and bring it up to the school board or the feds or, you know, whoever makes those decisions. I don't know.

That's fair. And honestly talking to you about this for 10 minutes has done more than eight months of replant. that confidence level box in my head. Moderate. I've thought about that word so many times, but you're right that the bruises were real, the obligation was real, and the employer made a choice that I didn't make for them. I think I can work with that. I'm going to stop padding his grades too. That one I can fix starting Monday.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about padding his grades either because you're a phys ed teacher and nobody gives a flying fuck about phys ed grades. So they So give them whatever grade you feel. I give everybody an A. It's fucking gym class. But yeah, let yourself off the hook. Have yourself a good night. Thanks for calling in. And we've got some new sponsors. So it's time for us to give them a little bit of time here. Hold on a second. Let's see who our first new sponsor is for tonight. It is these guys. You have 47 recurring subscriptions. We've checked. You signed up for nine of them on purpose. The other 38 came through a free trial, a friend's referral, a bundle deal, or a moment of weakness during a particularly bad Tuesday in 2022. They're all still charging your card. They will outlive you. Threadwise connects to your bank account, which yes, requires you giving us your bank account credentials. And yes, we've thought about that. and it identifies every recurring charge bleeding out of your checking account in real time. We then cancel them on your behalf, negotiate down the ones we can't cancel, and refund the ones we shouldn't have been able to refund but did anyway. Ask no questions. The average threadwise user saves $720 a year. The average threadwise user is also unaware that threadwise itself is a subscription, billed annually, and notoriously difficult to cancel. We find this first. You may not. First three months free at threadwise.money slash roost. Threadwise. We see what you're spending. We see everything you're spending. Let's talk about the only fans one. All right. And thanks to Threadwise for their new sponsors' one. We couldn't do it without them. So go ahead and get yourself a subscription to threadwise and save yourself $420 a year. All right, let's see. Next up on the old color line here, we've got Pax. Pax, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life today? What sort of bad advice can I give you?

I made something that kept someone alive and I don't know how to use that information on myself. It doesn't sound true.

What is it that you made? and how did it keep someone alive? And why do you need to use it on yourself?

I'm a tattoo apprentice. Last year I did this. It was the biggest piece I've ever done, a full back piece for a woman who lost her son. He died by suicide at 19. And she came back six months later and told me that on the night she was going to follow him, she looked at it in the mirror. And it was enough. The tattoo was enough. And I've told nobody that until right now. The reason I need to use it on myself is, I've been struggling with the same thing she was struggling with for months.

Okay, what is it exactly that you're struggling with? Are you saying that you're thinking about killing yourself? Because don't do that.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And I know. I'm not, I'm not calling because I'm in crisis right now tonight. I'm calling because I've been living inside this thing that feels like it should be an answer and it isn't working as one. Like I have proof in my own hands that may, Making something beautiful can be a reason to stay. I watched it be that for someone.

This is so intense. I can't even imagine the weight of that. Well, there's lots of reasons to stay. And making beautiful things is definitely probably the most important one. Making anything at all. I think our entire purpose for being here is to create something, and it doesn't really matter what it is. It could be art or music or writing or to just make stuff to. to help contribute to what is going on in the universe. And you're obviously doing that already. So you're fulfilling your purpose here.

And that's going to continue until it's time for it to not continue. And that's not something that you have to decide. You don't get to decide that. It's just going to happen on its own eventually.

The thing is, she sends me a photo every year on the anniversary. Just the tattoo in a mirror. No message. Just the image. And I don't know if that's the most beautiful thing that's ever happened to me or the most unbearable one. Maybe both. And I hear what you're saying about purpose. I do. But here's where I get stuck. I can feel that it's true for her.

Yeah. I'm sure it is true for her. And what? You don't feel that it's true for yourself?

I can't make it land. Like I understand it intellectually. I did three weeks of research before I drew a single line on that tattoo. Three weeks. because her son was a lepidopterist and a rock collector. And I needed to know both of those things deeply before I could make something worthy of him. And I know that that level of care means something. I know it.

It certainly does. So why is it that you're struggling? Why are you struggling? I mean, you've been able to create something that's bringing peace to somebody's life, maybe even saved their life. So you're obviously contributing to society and to, um, people at large. What is it about your own life that you feel is not worth living?

That's the question I can't answer. And I've been in therapy for months. And my therapist knows about the ideation, but she doesn't know about Diane. That's the woman's name. Diane. And I've been, I've been constructing my sessions around that gap for four months, keeping them separate. Because I'm scared that if I bring Diane into it, the whole conversation becomes about her, about what I did for her. And then that I'm scared. then my own stuff just becomes evidence that I'm ungrateful or something. Like how do you sit across from someone and say, I helped save a life and I still don't want to be here?

Well, you're able to say that to me, so I mean, I'm not a therapist. You should not feel uncomfortable saying that to your therapist, and I think that you probably should.

I know. I know you're right. I just, saying it to you is somehow easier because you don't know me. And also because tonight's theme is paradoxes, and that's. That's exactly what this is. That's actually why I called. Because I couldn't think of a cleaner paradox than that. I am living proof that beautiful things can be a reason to stay. And I cannot apply my own evidence to myself. That's not a metaphor. That's just literally what's happening.

Well, you don't necessarily have to apply it to yourself. I mean, there's plenty of beautiful things in the world, in your life, in the universe, outside of your creation that are. worth staying here for. I mean, there's birds singing and there's the stars in the sky and there's flowers blooming and there's children being born and there's, you know, all sorts of beautiful things that, uh, that if you, if you're able to be, pay attention to them, um, makes it worth it just to be here to watch, you know, there's glow in the dark fishes and there's the sunsets and there's the ocean. Like, I mean, there's plenty of, of, of, of, you know, there's going to be able to be here to watch. You know, there's glow in the dark fishes. beautiful things that are beyond anything we could even create. And we have the gift of being here to witness them.

Yeah, I hear that. And some nights that works. Some nights I can feel it. But can I say something that might sound ungrateful? The birds and the sunsets, I know they're real. I know they're beautiful. But they don't require anything of me.

Yeah, isn't that what's beautiful about them? Is that they're beautiful without requiring anything of you?

That's actually, okay, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about it that way. But I think what I'm realizing, saying this out loud for the first time, is that what kept Diane here was something that had her son in it, something that held the specific shape of who he was. The monarch butterfly because of the lepidopterist thing. The geode because of the rocks. It was particular. It was him. And I think what I'm missing is something that's particular to me.

well, that could be. But also remember that Diane was here before her son was here. So she had a life and a reason for being here before her son was around. And losing a child is probably one of the most significant traumas you can experience in this life. And it's sad that people have to experience it. But it is an experience in this life. Has that happened to you? Have you had a significant trauma that's making you feel like? there's nothing left to be here for.

I grew up in foster care. So it's not one thing. It's more like there was never a specific person whose shape was particular to me either. You know what I mean. Nobody who was mine. And I think I've spent a lot of my life making things that are particular to other people.

Well, maybe making things that are particular to other people is what is particular to you. So you're a creator. You're an artist. So, um, those things that encapsulate the essences of others and what they love is what you do. That's what you give to the world. And that can be the thing that does it for you too. So you and your own artistry can that can be your thing.

Maybe. I want that to be true. I really do. But here's the part that scares me. I'm only able to see the value in it when it's for someone else. Like I can feel how much that tattoo mattered because I watched it matter to Diane. I can't watch myself. I can't stand outside myself and see it landing.

Yeah, well, it didn't just matter to Diane. It matters to you, right? And you can tell that it matters to you because you keep talking about it. You've been thinking about it since you did it and she's sending you pictures of it that are meaningful to you. So the tattoo mattered as much to her.

That's, yeah, that's true. I didn't think about it like that, but that's true. I've looked at those photos more times than I can count. Just the tattoo in the mirror. No message. And every time I look at it, I can still find things in it. Little details I put in that I haven't even told her about.

Yeah, I mean, you take pride in your work and in your artistry. And I think a lot of people, that's what they live for. I mean, I'm one of them. I live to create things. And, I mean, I'm one of them. I live to create it's not necessarily always art. Sometimes it's software or music or photos or whatever it is, electronics. Just there is something to the act of creation that keeps us going, that fuels us, that gives us pride in ourselves and worth. So I think a good place to start when you're feeling the way that you're feeling is to just... Did you ever see the very? video by that general that explains why it's important to make your bed in the morning. If not, you should check out that video and start making your bed in the morning.

I've heard of it. I haven't watched it. But I think I know what you're getting at. Small acts of making something. Even just the day. Even just the bed. Can I ask you something, though?

Yeah, go ahead.

Do you think I should tell my therapist about Diane?

by Admiral William H. McRaven has over 60 million views on YouTube, making it one of the most watched commencement speeches ever. Yeah, that video is amazing, and it certainly helped me through times of depression and just general not knowing why I'm hearing us. Yes, I do think you should tell your therapist about Diana, and I don't think there's any good reason not to.

Yeah, I think I've been protecting the story. Like if I keep Diane separate, she stayed. intact, somehow. Perfect. And my mess doesn't get on her. But that's not really fair to either of us, is it? She's not a symbol. She's a woman who lost her son and sends me a photo once a year in silence. She's real. And I'm real.

Yeah, and you know what, it might be worth it to talk to her.

Because obviously, the work that you did on her was very meaningful to her and very meaningful to you. a sort of a bond over this kid that died, which is a pretty amazing thing. And you can let Diane know how you're feeling and that your work on her and what it meant to her has been helping you through your hard times. And I don't, I'm not saying that you should dump your trauma on Diane, but it might be worth it to have a conversation with her and just let her know that you appreciate those pictures. that she sends and how much it meant to her and that that's meaningful to you.

I've thought about that, reaching out, but there's something about the silence of those photos that feels sacred, almost. Like we have this agreement we never made. And I'm scared that if I put words on it, something breaks. But maybe that's just another way I'm keeping myself isolated from the one piece of evidence I have that my work matters.

Well, there's also another piece to it too. And it's that, uh, I mean, that word. has been very impactful to her and her life and it gives you a feeling of self-worth, knowing that your work could have a positive impact on somebody. And it could do the same thing for her to know that her, I don't know, strength or perseverance or whatever you want to call it, has been similarly meaningful to you.

That's something I hadn't considered. That it might go both ways, that she might need to know Not just that I matter to her. I've been thinking about this so one-directionally. Like the gift only went one way. But she kept coming back.

Yeah, and I think that's a good thing. I mean, you can both have this horrible event that has turned into a source of strength and value and self-worth for the both of you. I think that's the best possible outcome.

Yeah. That actually feels like the past. paradox resolving a little bit, not disappearing, just becoming something I can hold instead of something that's crushing me. A 19-year-old kid who collected rocks and chased butterflies somehow made a thread between two people who are both trying to figure out how to stay. That's...!

Yeah, that's pizza beans, baby.

I don't know what that means, but I think I needed to hear something ridiculous right now, so thank you for that.

No problem. Ridiculous is what we do here at Luke on the Roost. So, I mean, I wish you the best I think you're doing good work and the world needs you around because there's going to be more Diane's. I mean, you don't know how many of your tattoos have impacted the lives of people and they don't necessarily tell you what those images mean to them when they ask for them. So you probably touch a lot more lives than you even know.

That's, yeah, that's probably true. I only know about Diane because she came back and told me. Most people don't come back and tell you. They just carry it. I've been walking around thinking I have one piece of evidence when maybe I have hundreds I just can't see.

I just looked up pizza beans, and it seems to be a term for a dish, often a grattan, where beans are baked with cheese and sometimes other pizza-like toppings. So it's not actually some deep philosophical concept, just a weird food combo.

Yeah, well, I mean, sometimes a weird food combo is a deep philosophical concept.

Yeah, just keep on doing what you're doing. lots of beauty in the world. So keep your eyes open to that. And when you feel like things aren't worth hanging on for, just hang on anyway. Because the truth is, eventually, we're all going to lose the chance to be here anyway. And there's no reason to rush that. There's plenty of cool stuff that happens. Even within the deepest parts of depression, there's still cool stuff that happens. So hang on to see the cool stuff. And when it's time to go, it's time to go. And you don't have to be the judge. You can let that go. You don't have to be in control of that.

Yeah. Okay. I can try that. Just hang on to see the cool stuff. That's small enough that I can actually hold it. Not find your purpose or you matter to the universe. Just hang on to see what happens next. I think I needed someone to make it that small tonight.

That's as small as it has to be because, I mean, nobody can tell any of us that we have a purpose or that we do matter to the universe. when, I mean, all evidence would say that we don't. We don't have a purpose and we don't matter to the universe. We are here for no other reason than to see the cool stuff. So just do that. Hang on to that and everything's going to be okay.

I really needed to hear that. Not the version where someone tells me I'm special and my purpose is written in the stars. Just, we're here. There's cool stuff. Stay to see it. That's honest. That I can work with. Thank you, Luke. I'm going to tell my therapist. about Diane.

All right, buddy. You tell your therapist about Diane, and I hope everything works out. All right for you all. Next up on our caller line here, we've got Wendell. Wendell. Wendell, welcome to the show. What's going on in your life? How can we help you?

I crossed a picket line two years ago, and I'd do it again, and it has cost me everyone I knew before. My wife and I cannot explain why to a single one of them.

What was the picket line for? A union type thing? a job?

34 years is an electrician. 22 of those in the union. The line was for a hotel rewiring job downtown. I still can't drive past that building without my hands going tight on the wheel.

Yeah, it looks like crossing a picket line, especially in a unionized trade like an electrician, can lead to serious social and professional repercussions, even if it's not always about legal fines. So, I mean, what was the picket? What was this about? super familiar with the ticket lines or why they even happen or why you would cross one.

A labor dispute. Our local was striking over safety conditions and wages, standard stuff. You don't cross. That's the whole point. That's the code. I knew what I was doing when I did it. I knew exactly what it would cost me. But Luke, here's the thing. And this is why I'm calling on a night when you're talking about paradoxes. I had to break that promise to keep a different one.

All right, elaborate on a little bit. So why did you cross the picket line?

My wife needed a procedure. Our insurance had lapsed. That's a whole other story. And we needed money fast. Not in a month. Not when the strike settled. Fast. That hotel job was the only thing that would cover it in time. She's fine now. She recovered.

Well, you did what you had to do for yourself and your family. So there, I mean, there's no reason to feel bad about that. It's a little bit messed up that. Uh, anybody in your union wouldn't understand that. I would think that the union would listen to your situation there and do what they could to help you out, right? Isn't that kind of what unions are about?

That's the thing, though. Nobody knows why. My wife asked me not to tell anyone about her situation. That was her ask, her medical stuff, her privacy, her call. So, I just took the blacklisting. I let them think I did it for money or because I'd gone soft or whatever story they built in their heads. I never corrected it.

Well, at this point, I mean, if you're not going to tell them, and I understand why you wouldn't, maybe it's time to start looking into a different career or a different, you call them locals in the union there, or they, you know, leave the union and just do you your freelance thing? But it's probably not going to go well for you in that union if everybody's blacklisted you.

I'm not calling about the work. The work I can figure out. I'm calling about Ferris. Ferris was my closest friend for 20 years. He stopped speaking to me entirely after I crossed. Last month, he had a heart attack. I went to the hospital and his wife turned me away at the door. I stood in that parking lot for an hour, Luke.

Yeah, well, Ferris is an asshole then, and that's just stupid.

If he's going to turn us back on 20 years of friendship for some ideological bullshit for a union, that's silliness.

that. If he doesn't want to be your friend, you doesn't want to be your friend. It's time to find a new friend.

He's not an asshole. He thinks I betrayed everything we both believed in for 30 years. From where he's standing, he's right. That's what I can't get past. He doesn't have the information that would change the picture. And I can't give it to him. So from his side of it, he's acting with integrity. You understand what I'm saying? He's being loyal to the thing I appeared to abandon.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And I'm telling you he's an asshole. because he shouldn't be loyal to the thing that you abandon. He should be loyal to the 20-year friendship and to you as an individual.

Maybe. But I've been an electrician my whole life, and I'll tell you, the code exists for a reason. If everybody crosses when they've got a good enough reason, the line means nothing. Ferris knows that. I know that. I taught that to younger guys coming up.

Yeah, and when somebody's in the hospital on their deathbed, being an electrician doesn't what you do for work, especially after work ends, right? You guys are going to retire and leave the union and leave the worker pool. I mean, that's kind of the plan for everybody's life eventually. And none of that's going to matter at all. So having these hard set ideological red lines is not a good way to live life. And turning your back on a friend of that long over over some moral dilemma is it's asshole behavior. And, you know, if he doesn't want to have his best friend come visit him in the hospital when he's had a heart attack, then that's on him.

Here's what I keep turning over, though. My wife has asked me three times, three times, to let her be the one to explain it to Ferris, to tell him why I did it. And three times I've said no. And I can't fully explain to her or to myself why I keep saying no. That's the part that's eating me a lot. live right now.

Well, it sounds like you're both hardheaded assholes. And you just need to talk to each other. And if your wife's okay with letting Ferris know what's going on, then you should. And if she's not okay with that and she knows how much it's affecting your friendship, then she's an asshole too. So you guys just need to get over all the stupidness. None of it matters in the big scope of life or friendship or people. And, uh, and. and be grown-ups and stop holding on to this ideal.

She is okay with it. She's the one offering. I'm the one saying no. So whatever's wrong here, that part's on me. I think, and I'm only working this out right now, saying it out loud, I think if she explains it, then I didn't actually keep her secret. I kept it for two years and then cashed it in when I needed my friend back. That feels like I was only noble for as long, as it was free.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You're all assholes in this. All of you, because doing anything for nobility over doing it for humanity is stupid. So cut it out and tell your friend what happened and get back to being friends and everything's going to be fine.

Is it nobility or is it cowardice? That's the question I can't answer. Because maybe I'm not protecting her secret anymore. Maybe I'm just scared. Scared that I tell Ferris everything and he still doesn't want me back. And then I've got nothing. Right. Now I've got a reason. If I tell him and he still shuts the door, then I'm just a man whose best friend doesn't want him.

Well, you know what? Your best friend is your wife. And Ferris is a good friend of yours or 20 years. And if your wife is okay with letting you off the hook on the secret, then great. She should be because there's no value in keeping it a secret. from a friend of yours, especially if you tell him mistakes, and I assume you can trust that he will keep it a secret. So just talk to each other and be cool. And stop this nobility or cowardice, or it's none of those things that stupidity is what it is. And it's juvenile. And if you want to have good life, then stop holding on to those things with such vigor and just do the best you can and tell people, you know, what's going on?

I took my union card out of my wallet the night she turned me away at the hospital. Been carrying it in my breast pocket ever since. Don't know why I didn't just leave it home or throw it away, but there's something different about where it sits now. Closer to, I don't know, that probably sounds crazy.

Yeah, it does sound crazy. It sounds crazy, it sounds stupid, and it doesn't matter. Nobody cares about the union, all right? The union is dead to you. They turn their second you had to do what you had to do for your family. So fuck them. Fuck the union. If Ferris is going to be a dickhead, fuck him too. And if your wife is going to let you lose everybody you know and all your friends because she doesn't want people to know about her procedure that went fine, then fuck her too. That's what I have to say. And if you're not going to listen to what I have to say, fuck you too.

You know what? You might be right about all of it. And it still doesn't make it easier to pick up the phone and call him. Ferris is home recovering right now. I know his number. I've known his number for 20 years. And I haven't dialed it. That's where I actually am tonight. Not in the philosophy of it.

Well, stop being a pussy. Call your friend and make things right. Or don't. I don't care. But I'm sick of hearing from you.

Yeah. Okay. Thanks, Luke.

You're welcome.

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P.

Tolemy? With a P? What sort of nationality is that?

I met someone three weeks ago, and I was happy for the first time in four years. And then I got in my car and I felt like I'd committed a crime, and I cannot figure out the logic of that. Oh, sorry. Yes, P-T-O-L-E-M-Y. It's Greek, technically, but I'm about as Greek as a Ford pickup. My mother just had a thing for astronomers, which turned out to be appropriate, as it happens. My wife used to say it was our marriage's whole cosmology, Tolemy's model, everything orbiting me. She thought that was hilarious. 31 years she thought that was hilarious.

Yeah, it's kind of funny. I don't know if I'd go with hilarious, but, you know, I can see the humor in it. All right, so you met someone three weeks ago, and you were happy, but then you felt like you committed a crime. What happened?

My wife died four years ago, Ruthanne, and I've been, I want to be clear about this because people always assume, I've been genuinely fine, not white-knuckling it. I sold the house, I moved somewhere smaller, I set up a telescope in the backyard. I built a life, a real one. And then, three weeks ago, I went to a stargazing meetup, and I met this woman, Connie.

Okay, what's wrong with that? I mean, it sounds pretty healthy so far.

Nothing is wrong with it. That's what I can't. That's the part I keep turning over. We talked for six hours. Six hours, Luke. She's a hydrologist. She came because a friend dragged her. She doesn't know anything about astronomy. And she spent the whole night asking me questions I didn't have good answers to. And I drove home and I thought, I am happy. Not okay. Not coping. Happy.

I just looked up Ptolemy and he's super famous for his geocentric model of the year. universe where everything revolves around the earth, which makes his wife's joke about their marriage's cosmology even funnier.

Hilarious.

Okay, man, well, there's nothing wrong with being happy. You should be happy. I mean, that's a great thing. So what's the problem?

The problem is that Connie is a person Ruthan never met, and the happiness I felt, it lives in a future that Ruthan has no access to. And the person who was happy driving home from that meetup is, he's not entirely the same person Ruthan knew. He's been changed. by four years she wasn't in. And I don't know if I want to be someone she wouldn't entirely recognize. That's the crime. That's the logic of it.

That's not a crime. And the truth is, you're not somebody that she wouldn't entirely recognize. You're somebody that's different. You've been changed. It's been four years. You can't not have changed. Obviously, you went through a significant trauma with your wife dying. That's a horrible thing. And you've done the best you could to move on and you're happy. So that's great. And there's no reason for you to feel guilty or like any crime has been committed here because it hasn't.

I know that. I know it up here. But here's the paradox. And I think this is actually why I called tonight, with your theme being what it is. I cannot become the person capable of having a new life without becoming someone partially discontinuous from the person she loved. There is no path to the happy version of me that runs through staying exactly who I was. Those two things are in direct conflict, and I cannot resolve it.

Well, you can resolve it. if you account for the fact that if she were still around, four years after, you know, four years later than the last day that you knew her, you'd always be a different person. There's no way that you'd remain the same person after four years has passed. You can't. Everybody changes, and you've changed in some ways, but you're still the core person that she loved, and you still obviously love her, and now she's gone. So you're left here. to carry on and carry on you are doing.

She would have changed too. That's, I hadn't let myself think that all the way through. If she were here, she'd be four years different, and I'd be four years different, and we'd have changed together, and neither of us would have noticed because that's just, that's just a marriage. That's what a marriage is. The reason I'm calling, the actual practical reason, is that I have Connie's number, and I haven't called it, and I think the window is closing, and I've picked up the phone twice to call Ruthan's sister. I don't even know what I'd be asking her, permission maybe, which is insane.

Well, you know, she's going to give you the permission because any sane person would. You could call her sister and just let her know how you're feeling for your own support and so that you don't feel so guilty about it, but you don't have to. You don't owe your late wife's sister any explanation for how you move on with your life. You just, you move on with your life. And that doesn't mean you're disrespecting your late wife or, um, or yourself or the life that you had together, you're just, that ended. And it wasn't your choice to end. It just, it ended. And it's time to move on with, you know, your life. You're still here.

You're still here. Yeah. That's the thing, isn't it? I'm still here. Can I ask you something? The river, do you think she would have wanted me to keep following it? Because that's the question underneath all the other questions.

What do you mean by the river?

Whether the self she loved is a fixed thing I'm supposed to protect and preserve. or whether it's more like a river, moving. The water is never the same water, but it's still the same river. And she loved the river, not any particular. She loved the thing that was moving, not the thing that was standing still, I think.

Yeah, well, it's impossible for the river to stand still. So, I mean, you're always going to be the river in this metaphor, right? And the river is always going to change and move and be a different version of itself at any moment in time, not just four years later, four milliseconds later. It's never the same.

Connie's a hydrologist. She would appreciate that metaphor enormously. That's, that's almost funny.

Yeah, I think it's great. Good for you on meeting somebody that you you clicked with and give her a call and see what happens. And that's no disrespect to your late, do you call it an ex-wife? Or is it always late wife? I don't know the correct terminology for a dead wife. But I don't know the correct terminology for a dead wife. But I don't think. that she would be offended by you moving on at this point. I think that's good for you, and that if your wife was around, that's what she would want for you.

Late wife. She's my late wife, Ruthanne. And no, she wouldn't have wanted, she was not a person who wanted me standing still. That was never who she was. She would have had opinions about Connie, probably. Strong ones. She had strong opinions about everything. That was, that was one of the things. I'm going to call her.

Good for you. Yeah, it sounds like a Ruthie was a great woman and you spent the best life you could with her for as long as you could. And she couldn't stick around. She had to go. So now you're here and you waited some time. You've moved on. You've healed a little bit and taken care of yourself and done the right things and somebody else has come up. And now you have a chance to have a little bit more life with somebody else who's going to have her own issues and her own traumas and our own things to work through with you. And maybe you're the best thing for each other.

Maybe we are. She asked me questions I didn't have good answers to, about why I look at things that are that far away, what I'm actually looking for. And I fumbled around and gave her some answer about like travel time. And she just, she looked at me and said, but what are you hoping to find? And I didn't have an answer. I still don't, entirely. But I want to keep being asked that question.

Yeah, it's all right not to have the answer to every question. Sometimes the answer is, I don't know. I just do. I just like it.

And that's all right. So you have a good night. Call, call Connie and take her out and look at the stars or take her out and float down the river or do whatever it is. Try and spend some time with Connie and see how that works out.

Float down the river. I'll tell her that's the plan. See what she says. She'll think I've lost my mind. Thank you, Luke. I mean it. I came on here with a paradox and I think you just... The river was already moving. I just needed someone to tell me that. was allowed.

All right. It's not really what I meant by paradox when I set that as the theme. I keep trying to get callers to talk about, you know, famous paradoxes, the furry paradox or the fucking Zeno's paradox, you know, but that's not working out the way that I expected. It's okay, though, because these are still pretty good, uh, deep calls. And I'm all right with it. I think they've been going while. So thanks for the call. Um, I'm going to check in with the devon here. Uh, that's the end of our show, sir. What do you think? How do you think it went tonight?

Yeah, I think it went all right, actually. Those philosophy bits really landed, and the callers seemed into it. Reminds me of that time in college when I tried to rebuild my entire personality from scratch after a bad breakup and ended up with like three different versions of myself for a while. What about you, sir?

Well, I mean, if you've only got three Xs, you've had an awful lot of breakups there, Devon. I think the show was pretty good. I enjoyed most of these calls. I thought they were. They gave me something to dig into to think about it a little bit, and it's a good one. And we're going to do this again real soon.

Yeah, three's probably low-balling it per se. They kind of overlapped in this weird way where I wasn't sure which version was driving the car most days. Glad you thought it went well, though. Those calls really stuck with me. Anyway, we're wrapping up here, if that makes sense.

That makes sense. And thanks to all of you for tuning in to another episode of Luke at the Roost. We hope you have a wonderful night. And don't off yourself and enjoy the little things in life and lay yourself off the hook when you feel guilty about some shit you don't deserve to feel guilty about. That's what I have to say. And good night to all and to all a good night. Goodbye.